My heart BREAKS ALL OVER AGAIN as I read the conversation below. While the failure to accurately and adequately disciple our children rests squarely on the shoulders of the Christian parents, we have outsourced the training of our children in spiritual disciplines and Biblical standards to churches as well as youth leaders, and as a result, it is fitting that the church share some of the blame for this one! I am OUTRAGED by the sheer brevity of young church goers…sons and daughters of church leaders and lay workers…who have never even heard of the God of the Bible. Instead of being presented with the Truth that is found from Genesis through Revelation, they have been indoctrinated with atheistic and evolutionary views since they entered a preschool. This indoctrination has managed to massacre the flimsy faith of these children, who have spent an average of 4 hours a week involved in some sort of ‘church’ service as compared with the 7-8 hours a day/35-40 hours a week (if we include extra curricular activities) involved in and around a culture that despises the God they are being told to love. They are told that He is not real, and that there is no such thing as sin. They are told that what is wrong or right for one may not be wrong or right for another…there are no absolute truths. Jesus is just a man. There are many ways to God. Evolution and the Biblical account of Creation are the same thing… the list goes on. Where the world is producing disciples as if they have an assembly line on steroids, the Church is producing genuine followers of Jesus the Christ by the incubator methodology.
I have witnessed and been involved in MANY conversations on Facebook concerning the homosexual marriage issue as well as the abortion issue. This particular conversation involved my youngest son, Jordan, and some other young people who he knew from church, as well as some that he didn’t. The initial comment was made by someone who Jordan viewed as a friend and brother in Christ, and he felt compelled to comment because of an existing relationship. While he was a stranger to many of the remaining commenters, he was a friend to the young man whose page the conversation took lace on. I commented in an attempt to extricate him from the conversation. This disturbing conversation among ‘kids’ continued long after Jordan and I exited. I simply wanted all of you to get a glimpse into view that are held by children that their parents are not even aware of…
*This was a very long conversation with people I do not know. My desire is not to put anyones child on display or to embarrass anyone. The only name shared are mine and my 14 year-old son, Jordan. The comments made by us are labeled. No one else’s comments are.
Initial post (made by 18-year-old youth group member)
Well since the gay marriage things going around i figured i put my view on it. Yes as a follower of jesus it is wrong. Also as a follower it says NOT to JUDGE, to be accepting and to LOVE. Who are we to tell others they can’t love or show affection to the same gender. So yes i do support gays and the right to be married it doesn’t affect me why would i care. I know this opened me up to a lot of bashing and confrontation but oh well.”
The way I see it is this country is ran off of the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES. Not the Bible. The constitution says no where inside of it that it is allowed to be restricted. Separation of church and state my friend. But I Also agree with what you’re saying as well. We cannot control who we love, sometimes it happens. Who are we to tell someone else they can’t love someone?!
Love this I’m sharing it because it is exactly how I feel! How dies it make us any better than the worst people out there if we are quick to judge and take away rights!
Comment 3 ( Jordan)My God my God. Satan has gotten you too! We are not to consult a man-made government or its constitution. We are to be pointing to God’s Word! And His Word Alone. Yes we can say don’t judge and seem loving, but if that statement means let them die in sin according to false standard of LOVE that is not GOD than we HATE THEM.
Romans 1:18-19, 21, 24-32 NLT
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
The Bible cannot contradict itself, since it is wrong it is wrong and to label it right would be to spit in God’s Face.
Comment 4 (made by original commenter)
Sorry Jordan its my belief and im sticking to it. Opinion not fact
Wether you make it legal to be married or not, they will still be with each other. It’s not illegal to be gay. Therefor, we have no power over if they do these things or not, so they are committing this “sin” whether we make gay marriage legal or not. I follow what I do strictly by the bible. But I follow what this country says, strictly by the constitution. I would never do any of these things, so how does these make me corrupted by satan? I’m saying that this is not an issue over right or wrong. If they feel this way, then they have, as you say, been corrupted already, so why does it matter?
We are not labeling it as right, we are labeling it as constitutional.
Comment 7 (Jordan)
… you are corrupted by a false idea about love. God is love and there is no darkness in Him, so if go on living in darkness we do not have the light in us. Homosexuality is darkness. It is a choice to love God, right, So in the same way it is a choice to love a person, right. And who cares what the Constitution says on matters that are to God Alone. The constitution can be amended, God’s Word can’t. But you believe different don’t you?
No, I agree, god is whom we should love above all things. I am also not saying whether I think it’s right or wrong. And I don’t believe it is a choice to love god. I believe you either do or don’t. I don’t think you have any choice about it in any way. Some people are raised that god is a false being. If you are raised like that, then no matter what, your probably going to follow your parents in not loving god. This is about if it is legally allowed by the constitution. Which, at this moment (as you are correct, it can be amended) it is. Now, if it is amended, then I will be completely against it as I am from a legal viewpoint. I follow The Lord and try to help others stay away from sin. But you must understand that it is not always possible. All those murderers? You can’t help most of them anymore as they are corrupted. So if all gay people are “corrupted” then wouldn’t it make me correct to say it is too late for most of them as well?
Comment 9 (Jordan)
Why would you want to say that. Is there not a such thing as prayer and long-suffering evangelism. And why do you want to keep things in the gray when the Bible is crystal clear on it. And the Bible also makes it clear that even pagans steeped in sinful practices and demi possessed people can be freed and saved by Jesus, is that not the hope for them.
Every time I am at church, I pray for those crazed people in this world. But they keep doing it and almost all stay the way they are. None get the slightest glimpse of kindness or belief in the way of god. If the Bible is crystal clear, than why are there tons of religions, each interpreting it in a new way? I am Roman Catholic so it’s pretty upfront. Making gay marriage illegal solves nothing, as gay people will still be with each other. I would love to believe that it is never too late to save someone from sin. But if they do not care or believe in god, then they will continue upon the wrong path? How can. You save those that do not wish to be saved?
Comment 11 (Jordan)
I’m not saying I can friend I’m saying I’ve got to try and let the Lord work. One thing I can’t do is comprise. And the tons of religions (I’m assuming you don’t mean denominations) exist because man’s rebellious heart was intent on constantly coming up with new idols, new ways to sin, and new religious ideas.
And notice how they all believe what they wish? You can’t save someone who refuses to believe that God is real. You can pray and hope God forgives but that won’t save everyone. If we base our country off of our one religion, everything is going to spiral out of control. I’m saying that for the sake of keeping the country together, we need to make it legal. I’m not saying we can’t pray for all that sin and try to save them. I’m not saying we can’t spread the word of God to help others become believers and followers. I’m saying that for the sake of a country that must stay unified, we can’t make it illegal. Just because its legal does not mean that these “corrupted” people can’t be saved or helped.
I think the morals of the Bible are meant to be applied to our lives on an individual level, not a national level. Sure, it’s a spit in God’s face, but so is every sin that you and I do. Sin is sin, my man. All you can do is avoid it on a personal level rather than expect everyone else to adhere to your own moral standards and beliefs.
I do like you though. Not many people out there are knowledgable about their religion. The above may be confusing, as I think I misunderstood the first sentence of your last comment. We all can be forgiven for most sins, just as God forgives for the original sin. And even if their love is fake, is it not the same feeling? It’s the showing that they have a heart. That they have feelings. Is it not God that we should love most? I dont believe it matters much as long as you love him most. I love many guys, but am not gay. Would that love be fake? Or maybe gay people misunderstand that feeling? There are many ways you could look at it. That’s what makes opinions opinions. I did enjoy talking to you though, as you did get me thinking about it.
If being gay was wrong, then God wouldn’t have let people be born gay. You could say, “Satan made them”. Think. If Satan created life, then you also put him on equal standing with God.
Keep religion out of government. If all of America was one religion, then we would base government off of the Bible. At that point, we are a theocracy. We aren’t, so change the government to benefit the country as a whole, and not the individual beliefs.
People arent born gay. It’s a choice. Thats just a lie gay people tell themselves and others to not be accountable. I know many gays who changed and became straight. It is NOT biological.
Comment 17 (Jordan)
One area most of you is wrong is that religion can’t be taken out of government. Men are born religious, not gay, I can have that immoral temptation and fight against it by the Grace of God. Religion is not a term simply for Christianity, no, it is for a set of beliefs that govern a persons life. You are all very religious, but you have a false sense of godliness (accept for you Steffani you don’t seem to). The God of Creation Who created man and woman created that union and that union alone good. But if you say otherwise you prove your religion to be one of MAN being God and what MAN says to be law. John we all would benefit from a God governed culture and government. We were created by God for God, and what He says is best. Homosexuality is wrong.
And Greene cultures have thrived being based off the Bible. The ancient middle east did before the Muslims came. And yes GOD can save someone who believes a false standard. And one more thing, morality is not simply for a personal level, the nation of Israel in ancient times was governed by the Bible but when they decided to be like the immoral pagan nations they suffered God’s wrath. You all don’t want God’s moral standard to be Sovereign in the U.S. You think God is culturally and socially destructive when in fact it’s us that are destructive. God is King regardless of what we think we’re doing. And HE and HE alone will judge all. I’m just warning of the coming judgement.
Of course religion isn’t just a term for Christianity. It’s a term lumping people who believe in the same god and setting rules to follow that belief. Greek mythology is pretty much a dead religion. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god, not a religion. If you believe, “there is a god”, and end it there, it’s not a religion. There are no guidelines. Like …, I agree that you make a good argument and respect your beliefs. I respect your opinion and give mine in return, but that’s as far as I go. I won’t force my beliefs on anyone else, nor do I judge anyone on their beliefs.
Comment 20 (Jordan)
I understand. But you don’t get it it’s not an opinion. It’s God’s Word. And atheist are religion, the religion is that MAN and MATTER are GOD. Give me God’s word not opinions.
Jordan, I want you to understand that what I’m about to tell you is coming from a saved by grace follower of Jesus Christ, okay?
You cannot expect someone who does not believe in God (whether they are right or wrong) to back up their opinion with God’s Word. You can’t expect someone who isn’t actively trying to live the way Jesus lived to agree with your (or our) Christian beliefs. I’m not saying that homosexuality is good. I’m not saying it’s okay. I’m not saying its not a sin. But I am saying that to expect everyone else to live by our own code of behavior is arrogant intolerance. Avoid the sin in your own life certainly, but preaching to others who probably feel like Christianity and Christian morals are being forced on them that Christianity and Christian morals SHOULD be forced on them is only going to push them away from Jesus.
Galatians 6:4-5 says, “Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else. Each one of you must take responsibility for doing the creative best you can with your own life.”
I’m not saying what you believe is wrong, as a matter of fact I agree with you. I’m not arguing the Bible. I’m simply saying that you can’t expect people who don’t want Christianity to live by its morals, values, and beliefs.
Comment 22 (Jordan)
I understand, but I must preach the message whether they listen or not (Ezekiel 3) it’s not my job to save anyone, but to spread the seed and pray that other workers will come behind me and water it. It’s no good to make it legal, it’s sin. It’s lawlessness. I understand homosexuals won’t choose to live by God’s Law, and I can’t make them. I’m not trying to, I’m simply a messenger. Take up morality disputes with the Only Holy Standard of Righteousness, God.
I completely agree with you there, my man
not everyone believes in god its not the matter of church its the matter of rights in a country that has freedom of religion. this country is not run nor is it based on any one religion. so why do we push to have same sex marriages conform to a belief that they personally do not worship. its wrong to force religion on to People who just want to get married. if you think its sin fine its your problem, not theirs. john i thank you for your open mindedness and acceptance. let it be known i am not “gay” but i see no reason why people use religion as a reason to ban gay marriage.
Comment 25 (Jordan)
Do you not understand that the idea of freedom of religion came from men consulting God’s Word. And what do rights matter if they aren’t right. God is God and He decides what’s right. Any nation that walks out of step with Him will feel God’s Wrath
BUT THIS COUNTRY IS NOT RELIGION BASED! it has freedom of religion. it does not mean everyone has religion. and it certainly doesn’t mean that the bible is the only bible. there are hundreds of religions out there and all are accepted in this country. get that straight. and my respect goes to your religion and opinions, but you should respect others as well. your god is your god, your business, your faith. if others do not share in those things then there isn’t anything anyone can do. you do not get to say that those rights are not right based on the bible, because not everone follows the bible so why should they conform to it? let them have their beliefs like they let you have yours. Freedom of religion goes for everyone. not just one religion. not just one view point. but all and all decide wither rights are right. and by right i mean constitutional and NOT biblical.
oh and to analyze your argument even further when you said that freedom of religion came from men consulting gods word, it did not. Fact: freedom of religion came from the founding fathers, who were not religious by the way, who were fleeing Great Britain and other countries who forced its own belief upon its people, and anyone who did not conform suffered severely. And that is what this country is coming to if we do not separate church and state. And that my friend is fact.That is where freedom of religion came from. If believing in a certain religion is someones wish, let not the government or its people condemn you from doing so. if it is chosen to not believe in anything at all it is that persons constitutional right to do so. Constitutional rights are very different from what any one religion THINKS rights SHOULD be.
this seems like a good time to conclude, Lebewohl!
Comment 29 (Jordan)
…are you a professing Christian
Comment 30 (New Participant)
you shouldnt promote a sin…especially when its blatenly stated in the bible. ur right, hate the sin love the sinner, but ur not hating the sin here…people seem to miss that as christians, promoting this is directly against what god says about marriage and what its intended for…
no actually i am not christian thank you. i feel no need to explain my religious views to you. Especially since you have nothing else to argue with my rational logic with your, well, not rational at all. like i said your god your business your faith not everyone believes in your god. so please do not shove it down peoples throat. and for Gods sake open your eyes and see the very real world we live in now. we are not in the dark ages anymore. do not prosecute others one their sexual orientation because of some religious view. and before you say anything else, i want to make it clear that i did respect your religious views until you did not respect others. and you call yourself christian, please.
just dont like people like that shoving their views down peoples throat, ill be the bigger man here and walk away. but thank you for being open minded enough to see its not hurting anyone to have it legalized.
does anyone like toast? answer…I’m going somewhere with this…oh come on some one answer the question! Its simple, yes or no!
yes i like toast
Well you’re not allowed to eat it anymore because I don’t like it…
That makes sense right?… did you decide to like toast or did you just and it like it?
k that doesn’t make since. explain
Comment 39 (Jordan)
… I am a Christian. I love God and I respect you, something you can’t understand. I stand on God’s Word and His Word alone. You seem to be very religious yourself, you believe in the Supremacy of the State and liberty being outside of God and in MAN. But none of that matters. And do you honestly think I do this for my health, I stick my neck out for YOU. But you’re not a Christian, that’s something you can’t understand. It’s as simple as this God Created all there is including YOU and He has authority over all, but you don’t understand. You can’t hear. Jesus is Lord. Sooner or later YOU WILL BOW.
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NLT
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.” So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.
This conversation went on long after Jordan and I bowed out. These children discussed their Buddhist faith, and compared people like my son and I to Muslim extremists. We are the ‘kind of Christians that make the world a terrible place to live’. ‘What the world needs more of is tolerant Christians who believe in their God, but also believe that there is more than one way to God’. With the exception of a few comments, these were high school children, most if not all of whom either currently are active in a church youth group somewhere, or have at one time professed to be Christ followers!!! DO WE SEE A PROBLEM HERE?
Many modern ‘Christians’ won’t see a problem, because they believe as some of these misguided kids believe; that Jesus is a god but not THE God. He’s just one of many.
My silent anguish over this conversation is definitely minimized on paper. It wasn’t that my 14-year-old son pretty much stood alone on Facebook standing for and upholding the standards of God’s Word that bothered me…it did a little, but that wasn’t the BIG thing. It wasn’t that these children postured themselves as experts on the True and Living God and misrepresented Him and His Word that bothered me…well, of course that did as well, but that was still not the BIG thing. What really got me was the silence of the ‘believers’. This was a very public conversation, hence the many comment from varying sources. With the exception of one or two, he stood alone. And then I realized that this is what he will face, what true believers in Christ will face in the days and years ahead.
I want to leave you with a question in light of all that you know and all that you just read; Where will you be? Ask yourself, and be honest. Where will you be when Christ returns? I don’t mean physically, but spiritually. Where will your heart be when He returns? Will he find you waiting for Him, or enslaved to the world? Will he find you spreading his truth, or believing the lies of his enemies? Will he find you standing for Truth, or wallowing in the waste of the world? Where will you be when all of this settles?